Joseph allen honing issue

Just picked up a Joseph Allen and sons non xll 6/8 3/4 grind, it's post 1890 and has Bakelite scales with a lead wedge. I reset the bevel and worked through my hones, 1k, 6m, 3m, 1m. I noticed that the edge is very finicky. It has a slight warp to it, same as my ralf aust which I was honing at the same time. While the RA was progressing as expected, the JA would keep up then all of a sudden lose it. I had to back up on hones a couple times to get the edge back on track only to look at it wrong and lose it again. I shaved later and was hoping it would be better than expected given the problems and boy was I disappointed, one of the most irritating shaves in recent history, and all I did was take one swipe folded it up and used my RA instead, which btw was shaving awesome but only increased my disappointment with the JA.

Im hoping someone has had a similar problem and was able to fix it. The razor came in pretty good shape, with only a small 1/64th" of a chip and it honed out faster than I expected, using a king 1k btw. I'm wondering if the steel is too soft and can't take a fine enough edge.

I've had several Joseph Allen razors of my own and pass through my hands, all nice razors and held an edge. Post a profile pic of the razor and it will help to diagnose. I can only talk to you in "stone language" though, didn't care for mesh...just didn't feel right, like I was just trying to get by.

Are you talking about film and um as m?

Did you buff or sand the blade?

Which 1K are you using?

Did you breadknife the edge?

By”loosing it” are you saying it is chipping?

What method are you using to determine you have “Set the Bevel”?

If so, you are using too much pressure, used too aggressive a stone, the bevel is not completely set or you have bad steel.

Slight warp is normal.

Photos will help, and photos of the razor when you received it.

Yes knowing what honing materials you are using would be a help. Both films and shaptons go with the μm scale. (Which is the best scale :p) but knowing this may allow us to help knowing the aggressiveness of the particular home or film.

Bevel setter is a king 1k, everything else is Dmt diamond paste on hard maple hones. Determined that all the chips were out by running my fingernail along the edge and checked to make sure my bevels are apexed by running my thumb pad along the blade. I had it tree toppingoff the 3 um hone, I would then run a couple of super light stripping strokes on the hone, clean the edge and move to the next one. Mind you I was honing another blade at the same time though it doesn't mean that I didn't accidentally roll the edge on the JA. I am going to reset the bevel again tonight and see how it goes.

What I meant by losing the edge was that I would have edge passing tests along the entire edge or at least really close then go back to the hone for a little bit and test agin and the edge would be less sharp. I found that the steel on the JA is very sensitive to pressure, by which I mean anything heavier than its own weight and I would lose my edge.

I did not bread knife as the chip was minimal, may have taken me 30 minutes to set the bevel.

I'll get some pics up later but I do not have any of pre honing, and the eBay pics were low quality and you can't see the chip.

Well… there’s your problem…

Pastes are a whole different animal. When learning to hone, eliminate the most variables possible, eg use known synthetic hone progression. And this in not honing it is pasted stropping, though, it has been use for years.

Paste are subject to a number of variables, grit size is but, one, grit shape, grit purity in size and grit, hardness of substrate and most important amount of pressure use, and using a spray, the quality of the suspension is equally important. You cannot just mix diamond powder with water and expect consistent, repeatable results.

Not saying it can’t be done, but you have probably introduced the largest amount of variables into a progression to hone a razor.

And we are not even talking about the largest one… learning to strop. Stropping ability will largely, determine the results.
Oh and by the way Diamonds will remove equal amounts of steel from the spine as the bevel. Diamonds and pressure are notorious for chipping edges, they are very aggressive. Also when buying diamond, not all are alike, you really do get what you pay for especially in the nano grits.

Do yourself a favor and buy a 4/8k Norton, the 1k King is a fine bevel setter. You may have to remove some steel from the edge, to get to good steel now.

Interesting, about the hair test… in another recent post some experts, were raving about it … Humm.

What you're saying makes sense, I totally understand how aggressive diamonds are and I assume they could cause fracturing in the steels surface, at least I have seen it under magnification with larger grit sized steel hones. I wonder why one razor would have an awesome edge while the other was not good enough to scrape paint. Funny things, razors, I use the same setup for my knives and all my wood working tools and have felt up and too this point there is no reason for me to go back to synthetic water stones. I may have to revisit that when the funds become available.

What Euclid said is perfectly correct. Honing and "pasted" stropping are two different physical activities.
The binder in the sharpening stone gives and controls a certain consistency that's not available elsewhere. Consistency (predictability) is an important element in achieving desired results. The evidence to this fact is in what you're seeing between your two razors. Sharpening or creating a sharp edge is a controlled activity, the greater the control, the better the results.

I understand the cost factor in affording the right sharpening tools. We often discuss the compromises that alternative tools gives/creates. Because a razor requires a precision edge to shave properly and comfortably, compromises are both felt and seen. It's a joy to help one another in this endeavor, the right tool for the right job cannot be over-stated. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

And that, is the biggest difference in sharpening tools and knives, a nano serrated edge for most knives and tools is a good thing.

And why the hair test is so unreliable, a serrated edge will easily cut hair, but you will not want to shave with it.

Sharp is easy, it is comfort and smooth that is difficult with vintage razors. Sharp is only half of the issue. And you can’t cheat, by just polishing an edge. For example you can polish your highest grit edge to a smooth edge with other paste, but it probably will not hold up under shaving.

A good strong, keen and comfortable edge, must be built… like a house, beginning with a foundation…

Most folks do not understand how fragile a razor edge is.

I use diamonds for most all my knifes & of course my wife...not razors as the sound advice above references.

just broke down and ordered naniwa 5k,8k,12k stones, hopefully it makes a difference otherwise i may have to work on my technique instead ; )

They won’t hone themselves, and they are not magic, but those are great stones. With what you have, you are set for life.
While you are waiting, look at the library and the honing videos from Lynn and GSSixgun.

Once you set the bevel, the rest is just polishing, sounds like you are already familiar with that, but there is some technique and much less pressure than with knives and tools.

All I can say is, N-A-N-I-W-A. My stones showed up this morning so I took them to work with me.

I got a 5k, 8k, 12k "set" from srd. Got them lapped using a course diamond hone(325 grit equivalent) except for the 12k, which I did a final lapping with a fine diamond hone (1200 grit equivalent.

With one layer of electrical tape on the spine I got to work on the Joseph Allen on the 1200 grit diamond hone and made sure the bevel was set, then worked my way through the new stones. Lynn says these stones have awesome feed back and he wasn't kidding. I did have to back up once from 8k to 5k when I realized I didn't quite get all scratches out. I honed for maybe 10 minutes and was done with the progression. Unfortunately I left my strop at home but the blade was already "grabbing" hair above the skin. All that was left was a test shave.

I did my normal routine of shower, light baby oil, strop 30/30, lather, strop 0/30, hot towel, lather, wtg, lather, atg, strop 10/30, lather, atg. Boy was I impressed. The edge didn't feel sharp, it was so smooth I felt like I couldn't catch my skin if I tried, a sensation I had yet to experience, up until now. The edge is as efficient removing hair as it is smooth. Where this edge really shined through was with the atg stroke. The only times I had any irritation was on my neck in two spots but it was due to technique and not the edge, I just held too obtuse of an angle.

Well unfortunately my beard takes a couple days to come back in, and can't wait to shave until then. I feel very lucky to have found this place. Without your experience and patience I would still be wearing a beard and looking a little homely.

Sweet, nice work.

Just be careful with bevel setting on a Diamond plate. If you start having problems chipping just get the bevels flat and almost set, then set the bevels completely with the 5k.

Or just lightly joint the edge on the 8K a couple times and re-set the bevel 10-20 laps.

Do your final laps with weight of the blade to polish a fine edge.

Congratulations, shave well my friend.